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Ecological Internet's campaign against mongabay.com

On the morning of Christmas Day 2011 Ecological Internet (EI) launched a campaign against mongabay claiming we promote logging and conversion of old-growth rainforests for industrial plantations. We denied the accusations, but EI has continued its campaign, repeating the same inaccurate points.

EI's campaign is without merit and stems from a personal grievance of Glen Barry, EI's founder against mongabay.com. In December 2011, Glen Barry recommended mongabay.com conduct an interview with him. We refused because (1) he has falsely claimed that we have tried to censor him in the past, (2) he has demanded that we support his advocacy campaign (Mongabay is not an advocacy organization), (3) he has demonstrated poor working knowledge on some of the issues he campaigns around (especially what REDD+ does and does not finance), and (4) his willingness to misrepresent science to fit his agenda. He subsequently launched his campaign against us.

During the course of EI's campaign, Glen Barry has disparaged our work and launched personal attacks against our staff. Below are the exchanges between mongabay and Glenn Barry/EI since the launch of its campaign.

First, a few examples Glen Barry's misrepresentations and misconceptions.

Misrepresentations and misconceptions
    EI: Mongbay (sic) supports REDD unequivocally

    Mongabay has never said it supports REDD unequivocally. This is another misrepresentation by EI. We have written about a number of pitfalls with REDD, which is evident on our forests feeds as well as the presentations we've posted on mongabay.com (e.g. "The True Costs of REDD") and papers we've published in academic journalists. Lastly the REDD mechanism is still being negotiated, so now is the time for civil society to influence its design to ensure there are safeguards against conversion of natural forests to plantations and other abuses like lack of recognition of local land use.


    EI: Any organization that regularly reports upon REDD - indeed is the self-described "go-to-guys" on such information - and fails to mention the concerns that REDD funds primary forest logging along with the other concerns, is open to charges of supporting primary forest logging and corruption. You have still not indicated why you feel justified in virtually ignoring this aspect of the debate.

    Rhett Butler: We have described ourselves as the "go-to guys" for information on REDD.

    EI: NEVER SAID YOU DESCRIBED YOURSELF THAT WAY

    Barry has just been caught in a lie. Furthermore, we have reported on this issue.


    Claim: YOU EARN A PAYCHECK LARGELY FOR WRITING ABOUT REDD.

    Fact: This is false. Forest news reporting is a net cost for mongabay.com, meaning that we lose money on it.


Blue sections are tweets by Dr. Glen Barry (mongabay has not posted any tweets on this issue), while white sections are Facebook activity.

On Friday night or Saturday morning, EI deleted its posts on the mongabay.com Facebook page. EI had posted more than a dozen comments, which served as the basis for our responses in the Facebook thread.

Note that mongabay.com has not deleted any comments in these threads. We have included all comments in chronological order (as best as we could) for the sake of transparency and providing context on EI's campaign. Glenn Barry has deleted a number of his most disparaging and inaccurate comments, although we captured some prior to deletion.

Mongabay will continue to collect statements posted by EI in its campaign against us.





Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 4h @Mongabay must take responsibility for failing #rainforest movement by covering @UNREDD & barely mentioning #REDD+ will log primary forests
2 hours ago via TweetDeck ·

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 4h @Mongabay portrays campaign against poor REDD logging reporting as sour-grapes b/c not interviewed, LOL could care less, want truth on REDD+
2 hours ago via TweetDeck ·

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 4h In 100s @UNREDD forest carbon finance articles, @Mongabay can't point to one in-depth investigation of how depends on primary forest logging
2 hours ago via TweetDeck ·

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 4h @Mongabay utterly fails to report tax-payers will fund @UNREDD facilitation of widespread global destruction of #rainforests for plantations
2 hours ago via TweetDeck ·

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 4h #REDD @oldforests logging hides behind #greenwash myth of benign goodness precisely because media & NGOs like @Mongabay not doing their job
2 hours ago via TweetDeck ·

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 4h ‎@Mongabay: why is REDD's potential targeting of Earth's remaining naturally evolved, large wildlands for logging not newsworthy?
2 hours ago via TweetDeck ·

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 4h ‎@Mongabay funds itself & staff make a living reporting upon #REDD. It is corrupt to barely mention #REDD will log primary forest logging,
2 hours ago via TweetDeck ·

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 4h By not telling full truth re: #REDD & its planned dependence on @oldforests logging, @Mongabay supports massive primary forest destruction
2 hours ago via TweetDeck ·

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 4h @Mongabay takes great umbrage at being called out for #REDD PRIMARY FOREST LOGGING SUPPORT- what else can you call not telling whole truth?
2 hours ago via TweetDeck ·

Mongabay.com - Facebook
Joe M Lamb For over 20 years I have been working to support indigenous rights and rainforest preservation in Borneo. If you measure victory by the number of hectares saved, the rainforest conservation movement has, in spite of some remarkable success, been fighting a loosing battle. The combined forces of logging, monoculture plantations, mining, and giant mega dams continue to eliminate vast tracts of forest, continue to drive indigenous peoples off their lands, and continue to damage the cultures of indigenous peoples. As we all know, it’s the same sad story the world around. In spite of tremendous effort by many dedicated people ad organizations, we have only been able to slow the destruction. We are far from the ideal of reversing the deforestation; of restoring the burned peat forests, or securing human rights for indigenous peoples.

What will it take to counter the powerful economic forces driving rainforest destruction?
As the world opens its eyes to the perils of climate change, I hoped that we would realize that there is no rational choice but to protect the world’s rainforests. When REDD surfaced it looked like we might have a source of funding big enough to counter the logging and plantation billionaires. The work of international and indigenous NGOs has produced results, but the forest is still coming down at a frightening rate.

I knew, of course, that any program like REDD would be fraught with all the very real, and very dangerous, pitfalls associated with large transfers of money. REDD could make things worse. As students of Frances Moore Lappé’s work understand, even well meaning foreign aid can produce the opposite of its intended effects. Systemic corruption, widespread racism, and just plain incompetence make programs like REDD very problematic. However, these challenges must be weighed against the ongoing destruction; what will happen to the rainforest if we don’t find a way to pay for its protection? The industrialized world profited from the plundering of the forest, we should pay for protecting what is left, and for restoring as much as we can. That’s our moral duty. Given the urgent need to hold climate change to non-catastrophic levels, it’s also in everyone’s self-interest.

It won’t be easy. Finding a realistic way to reverse the deforestation remains a complex and monumental task even if we had, by some miracle, as much money as our opponents. Transfers of wealth, on the level necessary to counterbalance the forces of rainforest destruction, will be among the greatest challenges faced by civil society. To meet that challenge we need intelligent debate, free flow of information, and a well-informed public. Rhett Butler’s work, in Mongabay and at the Bay Area Tropical Forest Network (BATFN), provides vital linkages between academics and activists, and helps educate the public about these very complex issues. I attended Rhett’s talk at BATFN on REDD. It was the opposite of a sugarcoated endorsement. He highlighted REDD’s many problems, and in no way implied that these issues would necessarily be resolved. Glen Barry’s wild accusations that Mongabay somehow advocates the logging of primary forests, or works to greenwash REDD, do damage to the rainforest movement. To formulate workable strategies, the environmental movement needs an informed, civil and honest exchange of ideas. Which is exactly what Rhett facilitates.

Like Glen Barry, I feel deeply about the pillaging of the world’s forests. In a world where political discourse has been reduced to the spectacle, a lot of bad analysis springs from genuine feeling. This is true of Glenn Barry’s vitriolic attacks on Mongabay; they may be heart felt, but they do a real disservice to the cause of rainforest preservation. I’ve had the pleasure of knowing Rhett’s work, through BATFN and Mongabay, for years now. Rhett works tirelessly to educate the world about the need to preserve rainforests. It is unhinged to claim that he has ever advocated the logging of primary forests. That kind of slanderous bomb throwing is what you would expect on talk radio, it has no place in the urgent discussions about preserving the forest. 9 hours ago

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 4h
@Mongabay more to #REDD than money, suppose to end deforestation to hold carbon- where is coverage of plans log @oldforests for plantations? 3:21 AM - 31 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 4h
@Mongabay - decent #rainforest science coverage, fluffy animal pictures, & coverage of #REDD money - but ignores #REDD's @oldforests logging 3:18 AM - 31 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 4h
@Mongabay - the "go-to-site" for #rainforest & #REDD news- has not written any articles highlighting fact #REDD+ incl primary forest logging 3:16 AM - 31 Dec 11


Ecological Internet - Facebook
In hundreds of their UN REDD forest carbon finance articles over several years, Mongabay can't point to one in-depth investigation of the extent to which REDD could fund and depend upon primary forest logging. There have been tiny mentions on occasion, but nothing like the coverage on other controversial aspects, for their wide REDD readership. Why is this? Is it a hidden agenda, an oversight, thi...See More
10 hours ago

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 10h
In 100s @UNREDD forest carbon finance articles, @Mongabay can't point to one in-depth investigation of how depends on primary forest logging 8:36 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 10h
LOL @Mongabay portrays campaign against poor REDD logging coverage as sour-grapes b/c not interviewed, could care less, want truth on REDD 8:30 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
If like @Mongabay support @UNREDD - and don't care REDD+ will log primary forests for plantations - doing grave disservice to #rainforests 7:58 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
Rainforest movement utterly fails to acknowledge #REDD+ will subsidize primary forest logging for new plantations @Mongabay @RAN @Greenpeace 7:57 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
Most of the rainforest movement - @RAN @Greenpeace @WWF @FSC_IC @UNREDD @Mongabay - support logging primary forests to reduce deforestation 7:57 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
@UNREDD @FSC_IC, @RAN @Greenpeace @Mongabay @WWF greenwash carbon forestry to deforest & replace natural @oldforests w/ plantations 7:56 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
@Greenpeace @RAN @WWF @UNREDD @FSC_IC @Mongabay climate/deforest solution? Log old forests, convert plantations, w/ carbon forestry & REDD $ 7:53 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
@Greenpeace @RAN @WWF @UNREDD @FSC_IC @Mongabay climate/deforest solution? Log primary forests, convert to plantations, with carbon forestry 7:47 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
To sustain global ecology must protect & restore @oldforests incl end primary forest logging- @RAN @Greenpeace & now @Mongabay big obstacles 7:46 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
@Greenpeace @RAN @Mongabay @WWF can't support FSC or REDD primary forest logging & be for rainforest protection! lol! They are OPPOSITES ;-) 7:45 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
@EcoInternet specifically calling out @Mongabay for @UNREDD REDD+ support- has not analyzed or reported extent primary forest will be logged 7:44 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
@Mongabay heralds "sustainable forest management" in primary forests - euphemism for 1st time logging destroying them bit.ly/uvpOxF 7:44 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
Unethical & conflict of interest for @Mongabay to campaign for REDD+ while claim environmental journalists, ignoring its #rainforest logging 7:42 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
Nothing as pathetic & ecocidal as @RAN @Mongabay @Greenpeace feeding upon @FSC_IC @UNREDD trough while deny support primary forest logging 7:42 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
@Greenpeace @WWF @RAN @Mongabay support logging primary rainforests & other @oldforests through presence in @UNREDD & @FSC_IC & it must stop 7:41 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
@Mongabay's coverage of UN REDD forest carbon has been deeply flawed - virtually ignoring its dependence upon primary forest logging 7:41 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
Orgs like @Mongabay building @UNREDD forest carbon finance w/out resisting its primary forest logging doing grave disservice to @oldforests 7:40 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
@Mongabay's #REDD page bit.ly/rYQ86U makes no mention whatsoever that #REDD depends upon primary #rainforest logging & plantation conversion 7:38 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
@Mongabay #REDD carbon forest reporting is #greenwash - ignore funding primary forest logging for plantations, as cover other issues. Why? 7:37 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
@Mongabay refuses reply why #REDD primary forest logging unworthy of news coverage, but indigenous, funding, leakage issues are- #greenwash 7:35 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
@Mongabay one of the primary "news" venues unremittingly pushing #REDD forest carbon finance, yet rarely mentions will log @oldforests 7:35 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 11h
Rainforest protection organizations like @Mongabay @RAN @Greenpeace @WWF who support primary forest logging will pay price as are outed 7:34 PM - 30 Dec 11


Ecological Internet - Facebook
It is being determined NOW if the United Nations Collaborative Programme on Reducing Emissions from Deforestation and Forest Degradation (UN REDD+) - which many NGOs including The Nature Conservancy, Conservation International, and "media" like Mongabay, promote and support through their participation in the process - will use forest carbon finance and carbon forestry to gain access to Earth's last primary forests, to be industrially logged - in many cases converted to plantations - as a climate/deforestation "solution". Those doing the greenwash grow a bit testy when confronted - as names are named - with their role in primary rainforest ecocide.
11 hours ago ·

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 12h
@EcoInternet demands @Mongabay stop pushing the #REDD primary forest logging for plantations agenda by selectively reporting REDD "news" 7:11 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 12h
Rainforest protection orgs & individuals like @Mongabay @RAN @Greenpeace @WWF who support primary forest logging will pay price as are outed 7:09 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 12h
When @Mongabay is challenged on their selective coverage & advocacy for #REDD carbon forest finance, responds w/ distorted personal attacks 6:58 PM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 12h
@Mongabay is one of the primary "news" venues unremittingly pushing #REDD forest carbon finance, yet rarely mentions will log @oldforests 6:45 PM - 30 Dec 11


Ecological Internet - Facebook

@Mongabay is one of the primary "news" venues unremittingly pushing #REDD forest carbon finance, yet rarely mentions will log @oldforests 6:45 PM - 30 Dec 11
Imran Hared but mongabay.com denied ..
12 hours ago

Tin Alvarez They are confronting this issue head-on. Has Ecological Internet replied to their latest comment yet?
12 hours ago

Ecological Internet ‎Imran Hared - they have said many things, including that Ecological Internet's long-standing concerns with NGOs greenwashing primary forest logging is a personal vendetta, ignoring 20 years of devotion to ending primary forest logging. They are caught being both advocates and a biased media source, and are acting out. If you read their coverage, they rarely if ever address the fact that REDD which they promote will log primary forests for conversion to plantations. It is a fact whether they choose to report upon it or not.
12 hours ago
· 1
Ecological Internet ‎Tin Alvarez every distraction and distortion of our concerns has been replied to professionally and courteously. They have been asked repeatedly to provide past in-depth news coverage of their concerns with REDD's planned primary forest logging and have refused to do so. Selectively reporting upon REDD news - when you are the major provider of such news - indicates you are advocating for REDD's embrace of primary forest logging as a climate and rainforest solution.

Ecological Internet - Facebook
Organizations like Mongabay that are participating in the establishment of UN REDD forest carbon finance, without highlighting and resisting its funding of primary forest logging - including for conversion to plantations - as a climate and deforestation "solution"; are doing a grave disservice to rainforests, other old forests, biodiversity, forest peoples, climate and global ecological sustainability

Jano Topercer thanks for your warning Yesterday at 5:23am
· 1 Ecological Internet Mongabay's REDD web page at http://rainforests.mongabay.com/redd/ makes no mention whatsoever that REDD includes funding for primary forest logging and plantation conversion. There have been only occasional brief mentions in "news" stories pushing the REDD agenda.
REDD
rainforests.mongabay.com
REDD . News and information on REDD (Reducing Emissions from Deforestation and forest Degradation in developing countries) . Yesterday at 6:02am
Rhett Butler ‎1. This page does mention the debate between primary forest logging and conservation.
2. Mongabay does not advise the UN on REDD policy nor are we advising the World Bank or any governments. Feel free to confirm with these institutions. We have nothing to hide.
13 hours ago
Ecological Internet Huh? Rhett Butler - where was it said you did? You list other controversial aspects of REDD here including indigenous issues, leakage, funding. Why not mention the major issue that REDD+ including primary forest logging? Wouldn't that be a more full coverage? Unless of course that is something you find acceptable and don't want to dry attention to.
13 hours ago
Rhett Butler I know reading takes time, but try doing it: "sustainable forest management (i.e. reduced impact logging) versus protection of primary forests as intact ecosystems"
13 hours ago
Ecological Internet Sustainable forest management is a euphemism that most people would not associated with a REDD based upon clearcutting primary forests - something Mongabaay apparently does not think is worthy of their news coverage. The fact that Mongabay cannot accept feedback that their coverage is biased in this account (I could never imagine CBS or any real news outet being so defensive, rather than saying, hey, some of our readership finds our coverage lacking), shows clearly that you are both advocating for and "reporting" selectively upon REDD policy.
12 hours ago
Ecological Internet ‎@Kevin Peterson - hundreds of people unsubscribe a month from our newsletter without any problem. Apparently clicking upon a link and replying to a confirmation is beyond you? Let me know your email and I can do it for you. 2nd and last warning, we are debating vital policy for global ecological sustainability here, and those that personalize such disagreements and become personally abusive are blocked from this facebook page.
12 hours ago
Ecological Internet Ecological Internet's science based position is that globally ecosystems are collapsing taking down our shared biosphere. We offer ecological based solutions that are adequate to this global planetary emergency including ending primary forest logging, ending fossil fuels, reducing population and inequitable consumption, promoting sustainable agro-forestry, and a whole list of necessary policy prescriptions. Is this practical? Perhaps not, are they requirements for global ecological sustainability, absolutely. Anything else - like supporting REDD which logs primary forests to address deforestation - is greenwash.
12 hours ago

Ecological Internet - Facebook
Greenpeace, WWF, RAN and Mongabay support logging primary rainforests and other old forests through their presence within, and support for, UN REDD and FSC carbon forestry. This greenwash corruption must stop.
Yesterday at 4:29am ·
Sarah Pappin Also the nature conservancy
Yesterday at 5:48am
· 1
Rhett ButlerEI is deliberately misrepresenting mongabay's views on this issue.
13 hours ago

Ecological Internet ‎Rhett Butler Any organization that regularly reports upon REDD - indeed is the self-described "go-to-guys" on such information - and fails to mention the concerns that REDD funds primary forest logging along with the other concerns, is open to charges of supporting primary forest logging and corruption. You have still not indicated why you feel justified in virtually ignoring this aspect of the debate.
13 hours ago

Ecological Internet ‎Kevin Peterson - your opinions are fine. We do have a policy here that this is a personal abuse free zone. So if your observations become personally abusive - rather than focusing upon when Mongabay does not cover the fact that REDD will fund primary forest logging - you will be blocked.
12 hours ago


Mongabay.com - Facebook

Ecological Internet Ecological Internet deleted its comments from the mongabay Facebook page. Here EI wrote about approaching a 'junior member of mongabay' [Jeremy Hance] to discuss FSC/REDD/primary forest logging. EI also claimed that we ignored a press release from WWF and Greenpeace that was a "major policy reversal".

Mongabay.com We read the press release and did not see it as a "major policy reversal" in any sense. Greenpeace has warned before about the risks that a poorly designed REDD+ mechanism could fund primary forest logging in the form of "SFM". We recommend you read their earlier reports on REDD, including remarks by Roman Czebiniak.

With regard to your other points. Yes, we rejected your proposal for a featured interview with Glen Barry earlier this month. There were several reasons for this, one of which was Dr. Barrry's misguided claim that we attempted to censor his prior interview. Jeremy and I already explained to Dr. Barry during his May posts on the BATFN facebook page, which we would be happy to repost if necessary, that we in fact did not attempt to censor him. This recent refusal seems to have become the motivation for your harassment in the past week. We did however offer to quote EI in our REDD story to give you a platform for voicing your concerns, which was ignored. It is worth noting as well that we have quoted Dr. Barry many times in stories in the past (at least 12 times according to a quick Google search). But in this case we simply will not let you bully us into granting you an interview, especially when you have been so unreasonable.

So far your campaign has mostly demonstrated that you haven't given more than a cursory look at our actual reporting and work on REDD since you are repeating the same talking points that do not represent our views on REDD. We continue to stand by our work on mongabay and encourage readers to judge us based on these efforts rather than your rhetoric.
13 hours ago

Mongabay.com EI: If you can provide some specific examples of where REDD is currently funding conversion of primary forests for plantations, we are ready to look into them and do in-depth reporting on them.
13 hours ago
Mongabay.com Finally, we are not a "booster for REDD" as we already explained in this thread. We do not advise the UN on REDD policy nor are we advising the World Bank or any governments. Your claims to the contrary are false. Feel free to contact any of these institutions to confirm.
13 hours ago
Ecological Internet Ecological Internet deleted its comments from the mongabay Facebook page.

Mongabay.com We will release the email regarding your interview proposal once I return to the U.S. and have a regular internet connection. Referring to Jeremy Hance as a "junior member" of mongabay is a statement unto itself.

Regard the institutions, this is a response to "Organizations like Mongabay that are participating in the establishment of UN REDD forest carbon finance" and "Greenpeace, WWF, RAN and Mongabay support logging primary rainforests and other old forests through their presence within, and support for, UN REDD and FSC carbon forestry." We apologize if we misinterpreted your remark.

Neither we nor the commenters in this threat share your interpretation of our REDD coverage.
11 hours ago
Mongabay.com And we are not attacking your character.
11 hours ago
Mongabay.com We will withhold releasing the email if you object. However now that you have accused us of slander we feel the interview message should be public.
10 hours ago
Nick Pharazyn I would like to add - I apologize if that first comment of mine came off a little aggressive - that was not my intention. As Rhett said, we're not attacking your character. We're all on the same side and your passion for the cause of tropical forest conservation is truly admirable, I just think that this action is a bit misguided
3 hours ago

Ecological Internet - Facebook
ARE YOU SEEING THE PATTERN OF RAINFOREST CORRUPTION?
Mongabay strongly supports Reducing Emissions from Deforestation and Forest Degradation (UN-REDD) forest carbon finance (while claiming to be impartial journalists as advocate on its behalf), which funds logging primary forests, yet Mongabay claims doesn't support primary forest logging. Rainforest Action network (RAN) founder and member strongly supporting Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) sustainable forest management, which greenwashes the logging of primary forests, yet RAN claims doesn't support primary forest logging. Greenpeace founder, past Chairman of the board and member strongly supporting FSC, which certifies logging of primary forests across area 2x size of Texas, yet Greenpeace claims doesn't support primary forest logging. WWF is so compromised doesn't even hide the fact it is for logging primary forests, and openly takes money from the companies doing so.

Are there any international rainforest protection solutions that don't involve their first time industrial logging and thus destruction, and truthful rainforest groups not benefiting from the rainforest ecocide? We demand these organizations fully disclose there relationships with REDD and/or FSC - including correspondence and financial records - in order to determine whether they have benefited financially from their greenwash of primary forest logging, while raising money for their protection.

Iain Lewis Can you not get needed information via a 'freedom of information' request?
Thursday at 12:32pm
· 1
Ecological Internet ‎Iain Lewis perhaps but takes time and money
Thursday at 1:27pm

Rhett Butler Mongabay has nothing to do with the FSC, RAN, or Greenpeace. Nor do we advise the UN, World Bank, or any governments on REDD policy. We have clearly stated the concerns about REDD in our reporting, presentations, and journal publications. 13 hours ago

Ecological Internet ‎Rhett Butler no one has stated you advice the UN, World Bank, or govts on REDD. Your coverage of REDD+ potentially funding primary forest logging and conversion to plantations has been miniscule, even as you routinely cover the other controversial aspects. This failure opens you to charges of corruption.
13 hours ago

Rhett Butler Corruption? You're going to a new level now. Wow.
12 hours ago

Rhett Butler Say what you want, but we stand by our record. I invite readers to actually read our content rather than rely on your selective interpretation of our views.
12 hours ago

Ecological Internet If they do read it, there will be an assumption to the coverage that REDD is good and should proceed, even though it supports primary forest logging.
12 hours ago

Rhett Butler OK, so now you are telling people to accept your claims without question.
12 hours ago

Ecological Internet huh? your point is not forthcoming
12 hours ago

Rhett Butler You've posted a number of false and malicious remarks about mongabay since you launched your campaign against us on Christmas Day. We've let it go on for a while but it's passed well beyond the point of being reasonable into outright harassment. To restate what we've said elsewhere:

Mongabay is not and has never been an advocate for the REDD that includes primary forest conversion for plantations. We have explicitly warned of this concern. Furthermore, the REDD mechanism is still being negotiated so there isn't a basis for your claim that it is currently driving large-scale industrial logging of rainforests for plantations (if you have specific examples, provide them and we will investigate). Perhaps you are referring to early CDM projects, which was an entirely different program and was certainly disastrous.

Finally your claims that we are REDD advocates is questionable -- we don't have a monolithic view on the program, which has evolved considerably from AD to RED to REDD to REDD++ just since 2005. We still believe some form of REDD -- whereby industrialized nations compensate tropical countries for actual reduction in deforestation and forest degradation (e.g. logging of primary forests) -- has great potential to save forests but remain wary. We do not have a position on whether finance will public (aid-based) or private (market-based, bonds) or some hybrid. We remain extremely concerned about risks including biodiversity, recognition of land rights/use, bias in conservation funding, corruption, loopholes for industrial countries to continue clearing forests, the concept of offsetting which reduces incentives for reducing industrial emissions, possible subsidies for industrial activities that degrade forests (e.g. logging), and other issues we have raised in our presentations, analysis, and academic publications.

I think you are doing yourself and your readers a disservice by misrepresenting our views on, and coverage of, REDD.
12 hours ago


Ecological Internet We have rebutted all your points previously and have asked simple questions like point us to your in-deth coverage of REDD and primary forest logging to which you have failed to reply. We have pointed out that your are the largest news source for REDD issues, yet have failed to cover this vital issue. You clearly are pushing the REDD agenda, and are selectively reporting news on the topic. We have made no personally disparaging remarks, yet have had to listen to your charges that despite 20 years of commitment to ending primary forest logging, Ecological Internet's present campaign is some sort f personal vendetta. Mongabay's response to reasonable questioning has been defensive, obfuscating, conflicting and personally abuive. You, Mr. Butler, have demonstrated poor character and judgment. Years of REDD coverage without indicating it clearly intends to log primary forests is dishonest and corrupt. If that interpretation troubles you, tough.
12 hours ago

Iain Lewis ‎"...some environmentalists fear that REDD will be usurped by industrial and government interests at the expense of forest preservation or that the program undercuts the rights of indigenous people."

Rhett, what do you personally think about this issue? Is there fire where there is smoke? Should you do more to expose such issues? Should Mongabay be more activist than merely journalist?

http://news.mongabay.com/2010/0603-hance_corruption_redd.html

Ecological Internet - Facebook
This is Mongabay's first response to our campaign highlighting their dual role as journalists and REDD boosters, to which we replied (with slight updates):

Earlier this month WWF and Greenpeace in a major reversal issued a press release admitting REDD+ has failed and funds converting primary forests to plantation. Mongabay - despite being provided the release - chose to virtually ignore the issue as their greenwash and UN-REDD boosterism continues. So our question to Mongabay: if Greenpeace and WWF say REDD is funding primary forest logging for plantations, and Mongbay supports REDD unequivocally, doesn't that mean you DO in fact SUPPORT primary forest logging for plantations? Or are you denying REDD+ supports these activities, something you acknowledged in a recent email to Ecological Internet (which we can provide)?

Mongabay does not support logging of primary forests for plantations. We never have and never will.

Ecological Internet We also noted: This is a policy debate, so it will be interesting to see if Mongabay resorts to personal attacks rather than discussing the issue and reasonable concerns with their dual REDD+ roles. Thursday at 5:30am
· 2 Rhett Butler We at mongabay do not have a "dual REDD+" role. 13 hours ago
Rhett Butler Mongabay does not support REDD unequivocally, as we have made very clear to EI. 13 hours ago
Ecological Internet Perhaps unequivocally is the wrong word and we retract it for these words: unquestioningly (of many aspects including that primary forests logging to be funded is good for climate), and selectively. The point being made is that you are pushing the REDD agenda with your coverage, you are participating it it being adopted as the "go-to-guys" on information, yet you are not questioning its most basic premise that clearcut logging of 500 year old trees in 60 million year old ecosystems is problematic. It would be like a journalist before the civil war reporting on all the issues related to slavery - not enough time off, families being apart, poor nutrition, poor treatment - without questioning the underlying premise that slavery is necessary and not evil. Mongabay's coverage has gone into extreme depth on the indigenous issue, the leakage issues, the funding from carbon markets or elsewhere; but has never stopped and stood back and thought is a an international program that legitimizes logging much of the rest of the world's primary forests in the best interests of climate, biodiversity, local peoples, ecosystems, the biosphere.

Why can't Mongabay answer any questions? 12 hours ago
Rhett Butler We have certainly questioned the logic of converting old-growth forests into plantations and strongly oppose it. Yet you continue to falsely claim we support it. You are misleading your audience. 12 hours ago
Ecological Internet That Kevin Peterson is a lie. You can click on the link, and after receiving a confirmation email and replying be removed. You could email me. What is your email address, I will do it now? 12 hours ago
Ecological Internet I have offered 3 times to remove you myself Kevin Peterson from our email list, yet you keep on indicating that we won't unsubscribe you, something that 28 people did yesterday, and 10 the day before, on there own. It is clear that you are not here to do anything constructive like debate REDD policy. You are here to personally harass and harangue, and you are now blocked. Feel free to email me your address, I will look for it now myself. 12 hours ago
Ecological Internet Rhett Butler - please indicate the top three news stories out of the hundreds you have done on REDD where you in-depth questioned REDD's dependence upon logging primary forests? You have done such exposes on all the other issues,why won't Mongabay exhaustively and questioningly report upon REDD plans to log primary forests as a climate and deforestation solution, as you have done with a number of other problematic aspects. Just answer that question. Is it because then the national governments supporting REDD would withdraw their support, is it because Mongabay assuming primary forest logging to protect rainforests is valid, what is the reason? 12 hours ago

Ecological Internet - Facebook
MONGABAY REDD CAMPAIGNERS OR JOURNALISTS?
It is unethical and a clear conflict of interest for Mongabay to openly and strongly campaign for REDD+, while claiming to be environmental journalists, going so far as to virtually ignore REDD's funding of primary rainforest logging in their "coverage" of the issue
Thursday at 5:00am
Rhett Butler Mongabay has warned about risks of REDD+ funding primary forest logging. EI is ignoring our work on this issue. 13 hours ago

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 12h
@Mongabay refuses reply why #REDD primary forest logging unworthy of news coverage, but indigenous, funding, leakage issues are - #greenash 6:44 PM - 30 Dec 11


Mongabay.com - Facebook

Christopher Herndon I full heartedly support the responses of Holly and the others. Respectfully, the comments of Ecological Internet are not constructive and seem more a personal agenda against the editors of mongabay.com. For thousands, mongabay.com is the go-to site for reporting on current events in tropical forest conservation at the intersection of science, politics, and activism. Mongabay.com is clearly a labor of love for Rhett, Jeremy, and the staff, not a platform for their personal agendas. Rhett has long discussed in a balanced manner the pitfalls of REDD. I have heard him in several different forums. So please, redirect your energy toward the true culprits of wholescale deforestation - not in derisive comments towards those making a difference.
23 hours ago

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 23h
@Mongabay #REDD carbon forest reporting is #greenwash - ignore funding primary forest logging for plantations, as cover other issues. Why? 8:25 AM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 30 Dec
@Mongabay's #REDD page bit.ly/rYQ86U makes no mention whatsoever that REDD includes primary forest logging & plantation conversion 6:59 AM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 30 Dec
Orgs like @Mongabay building @UNREDD forest carbon finance w/out resisting its primary forest logging doing grave disservice to @oldforests 6:16 AM - 30 Dec 11


Mongabay.com - Facebook

Ecological Internet Ecological Internet deleted its comments from the mongabay Facebook page.

Mongabay.com As already stated, Mongabay is not and has never been an advocate for the REDD that includes primary forest conversion for plantations. We have explicitly warned of this concern. Furthermore, the REDD mechanism is still being negotiated so there isn't a basis for your assessment that it is currently driving large-scale industrial logging of rainforests and conversion to plantations. Perhaps you are referring to early CDM projects, which was an entirely different program and was certainly disastrous.

Finally your claims that we are even REDD advocates is questionable -- we don't have a monolithic view on the program, which has evolved considerably from AD to RED to REDD to REDD++ just since 2005. We still believe some form of REDD -- whereby industrialized nations compensate tropical countries for actual reduction in deforestation and forest degradation (e.g. logging of primary forests) -- has great potential to save forests. But we do not have a position on whether finance will public (aid-based) or private (market-based, bonds) or some hybrid. We remain extremely concerned about risks including biodiversity, recognition of land rights/use, bias in conservation funding, corruption, loopholes for industrial countries to continue clearing forests, possible subsidies for industrial activities that degrade forests, and other issues we have raised in our presentations, analysis, and academic publications.
Yesterday at 6:05am 1

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 30 Dec
Orgs like @Mongabay building @UNREDD forest carbon finance w/out resisting its primary forest logging doing grave disserve to @oldforests 5:44 AM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 30 Dec
@Mongabay's coverage of UN REDD forest carbon has been deeply flawed - virtually ignoring its dependence upon primary forest logging 5:41 AM - 30 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 30 Dec
@Greenpeace @WWF @RAN @Mongabay support logging primary rainforests & other @oldforests through presence in @UNREDD & @FSC_IC & it must stop 5:26 AM - 30 Dec 11


Mongabay.com - Facebook

Holly Gibbs I agree with Derek and Nick. As a long time reader of Mongabay, I completely disagree with the comments from Ecological Internet. I'm surprised they choose to spend so much time and energy in this way. I know I speak for many, when I say that I'm grateful for the intense dedication and energy that Rhett and the staff of Mongabay.com have invested in keeping so many readers up to date on tropical forest issues. THANK YOU! You have a powerful and highly credible voice valued by many. (note that policy issues are dynamic, and available information and opinions will inevitably cycle over time)
Yesterday at 4:43am 1

Mongabay.com - Facebook

Derek Schuurman As a regular reader - and someone who has written for - Mongabay, I strongly disagree with Ecological Internet here. Mongabay does present concerns about REDD, and it has NEVER promoted logging of virgin rain forests for plantations. Mongabay has also been exceptionally helpful and ALWAYS prepared to assist in any way possible, no matter when help was requested, in slowing illegal rosewood logging in Madagascar. The site is exemplary and its work extremely inspiring.
Thursday at 10:36pm 1

Nick Pharazyn Re Ecological internet:

Why are you spending so much time and effort abusing and harassing mongabay.com and its staff?
How can you claim to have the interests of nature and the planet at heart when you are busy polluting it with intense negativity? The outer landscape of our planet is a reflection of the inner landscape. Many spiritual teachers have said this including Eckhart Tolle, Julia Butterfly Hill and Ram Das. How do you expect people to stop clear cutting forests if we can't stop clear cutting each other?

Too many people who care about nature are totally ignorant of this kind of hypocrisy, where they decry people destroying nature and then go around treating other people like s**t.

Please cease this thoroughly unpleasant behaviour and find POSITIVE and constructive ways to use your energy and time
Thursday at 9:23pm 1

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 29 Dec
Nothing as pathetic & ecocidal as @RAN @Mongabay @Greenpeace feeding upon @FSC_IC @UNREDD trough while deny support primary forest logging 3:12 PM - 29 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 29 Dec
@Mongabay writes #REDD "news" 10:1 in favor, rarely notes logging, travels world boosting, attends REDD meetings, now says doesn't support 2:07 PM - 29 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 29 Dec
@Mongabay ardent supporter @UNREDD forest carbon finance, funds logging primary forests, yet claims doesn't support logging primary forests 1:12 PM - 29 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 29 Dec
Unethical & conflict of interest for @Mongabay to campaign for REDD+ while claim environmental journalists, ignoring its #rainforest logging 5:53 AM - 29 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 29 Dec
@EcoInternet specifically calling out @Mongabay for @UNREDD REDD+ support- has not analyzed or reported extent primary forest will be logged 1:43 AM - 29 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 29 Dec
@Greenpeace @RAN @Mongabay you can't support FSC or REDD primary forest logging & be for rainforest protection! lol! They are OPPOSITES ;-) Dr. Glen Barry @DrGlenBarry 29 Dec
To sustain global ecology must protect & restore @oldforests incl end primary forest logging- @RAN @Greenpeace & now @Mongabay big obstacles 12:18 AM - 29 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 29 Dec
@RAN @Greenpeace @Mongbay you can't support FSC & REDD primary forest logging and be for rainforest protection lol! They are OPPOSITES ;-) 12:09 AM - 29 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 29 Dec
@Greenpeace @RAN @WWF @UNREDD @FSC_IC @Mongabay climate/deforest solution? Log primary forests, convert to plantations, with carbon forestry 12:07 AM - 29 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 28 Dec
@UNREDD @FSC _IC, @RAN @Greenpeace @Mongabay greenwash carbon forestry to deforest & replace natural @oldforests w/ plantations 11:56 PM - 28 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 28 Dec
Sustaining old forests necessary for habitable Earth requires confronting REDD+ greenwash they should be logged - incl by @Mongabay 11:50 PM - 28 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 28 Dec
Most of the rainforest movement - @RAN @Greenpeace @WWF @FSC_IC @UNREDD @Mongabay - support logging primary forests to reduce deforestation 11:39 PM - 28 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 28 Dec
Rainforest movement utterly fails to acknowledge #REDD+ will subsidize primary forest logging for new plantations @Mongabay @RAN @Greenpeace 11:38 PM - 28 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 28 Dec
To sustain global ecology must protect & restore @oldforests incl end primary forest logging - @RAN @Greenpeace & now @Mongbay big obstacles 11:20 PM - 28 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 28 Dec
If like @Mongabay support @UNREDD - and don't care REDD+ will log primary forests for plantations - doing grave disservice to #rainforests 11:04 PM - 28 Dec 11


THREAD ON THE MONGABAY FACEBOOK PAGE

Mongabay does not support logging of primary forests for plantations. We never have and never will.
Wednesday at 7:52pm ·

Mongabay.com http://news.mongabay.com/2011/0914-primary_forests_irreplaceable.html
Old-growth forests are irreplaceable for sustaining biodiversity
Old growth rainforests should be a top conservation priority when it comes to pr...See More
Wednesday at 7:53pm
Mongabay.com We have dozens of other articles on the importance of protecting primary forests.
Wednesday at 7:53pm Mongabay.com See our forests feed for our coverage of forest issues: http://news.mongabay.com/news-index/forests1.html
Wednesday at 7:54pm
Tin Alvarez Is this your reply to Ecological Internet's statement?
Wednesday at 7:56pm
Mongabay.com Yes, to the post below, which misrepresents our views on this issue.
Wednesday at 8:37pm
Ecological Internet Ecological Internet deleted these comments from the mongabay Facebook page.

Mongabay.com Mongabay has never said it supports REDD unequivocally. This is another misrepresentation by EI. We have written about a number of pitfalls with REDD, which is evident on our forests feeds as well as the presentations we've posted on mongabay.com (e.g. "The True Costs of REDD") and papers we've published in academic journalists. Lastly the REDD mechanism is still being negotiated, so now is the time to influence its design to ensure there are safeguards against conversion of natural forests to plantations and other abuses like lack of recognition of local land use.
Thursday at 6:09am
Mongabay.com At best, your comments here indicate that you have taken an incomplete look at mongabay's coverage. The 10-1 figure is a fabrication; we have given two REDD speeches (Berkeley in Jan '10 and STRI in Apr '11), both of which focused specifically on concerns with REDD--look them up; we have attended nowhere near a dozen REDD meetings (the number is 6 or 7 since 2006); etc. So again, we stand by our record. We do not support logging of primary forests for plantations nor do we support REDD payments for such activities. Anyone who implies otherwise is misrepresenting our views.
Thursday at 4:40pm
Mongabay.com Also EI is making false and malicious claims about mongabay in its relentless harassment via Twitter.
Thursday at 4:53pm 2
Mongabay.com these are some of EI's tweets since Christmas Day. Each has gone out several times across EI's network of Twitter accounts. We may have missed some.

    Nothing as pathetic & ecocidal as @RAN @Mongabay @Greenpeace feeding upon @FSC_IC @UNREDD trough while deny support primary forest logging
    @Mongabay writes #REDD "news" 10:1 in favor, rarely notes logging, travels world boosting, attends REDD meetings, now says doesn't support
    @Mongabay ardent supporter @UNREDD forest carbon finance, funds logging primary forests, yet claims doesn't support logging primary forests
    Unethical & conflict of interest for @Mongabay to campaign for REDD+ while claim environmental journalists, ignoring its #rainforest logging
    Most of the rainforest movement - @RAN @Greenpeace @WWF @FSC_IC @UNREDD @Mongabay - support logging primary forests to reduce deforestation
    @Mongabay reprints old forest logging greenwash verbatim while fails to cover grassroots global movement seeking end primary forest logging
    @Mongabay has become biased, unscientific mouthpiece for those advocating Earth's last primary #rainforests be logged for new plantations
    @Mongabay editorial bias supports big NGOs, UNREDD & FSC 1st time industrial logging of primary forests w/ carbon forestry into plantations
    @Mongabay's coverage of #REDD issues has pushed a hidden campaign agenda that logging primary #rainforests w/ carbon forestry is acceptable
    @Mongabay's editorial policy rarely if ever questions whether 1st time industrial primary #rainforest logging is an appropriate activity
    Whole global grassroots movement exists question & resist primary rainforest & other old forest logging, would never know reading @Mongabay
    Global rainforest movement has become lethargic, bureaucratic & corrupt as greenwash logging old forests - blame @RAN @Greenpeace @Mongabay
    @EcoInternet campaign to end primary forest logging now targets @Mongabay for rehashing REDD/FSC falseshoods primary forest logging is good

Thursday at 7:38pm
Ecological Internet Ecological Internet deleted these comments from the mongabay Facebook page.

Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 28 Dec
@Mongabay's coverage of #REDD issues has pushed a hidden campaign agenda that logging primary #rainforests w/ carbon forestry is acceptable 2:10 PM - 28 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 28 Dec
Logging @oldforests however done is not protection & @RAN @Greenpeace @WWF @Mongabay @UNREDD @FSC_IC & others to be named should know better 1:34 PM - 28 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 28 Dec
Most of the rainforest movement - @RAN @Greenpeace @WWF @FSC_IC @UNREDD @Mongabay - support logging primary forests to reduce deforestation 12:52 PM - 28 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 28 Dec
@Mongabay editorial bias supports big NGOs, UNREDD & FSC 1st time industrial logging of primary forests w/ carbon forestry into plantations 12:41 PM - 28 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 27 Dec
#Rainforest corruption rampant @Greenpeace @RAN @WWF @UNREDD @FSC_IC @Mongabay conspire log last primary rainforests, replace w/ plantations 5:38 AM - 27 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 27 Dec
#Rainforest corruption rampant @Greenpeace @RAN @WWF @UNREDD @FSC-IC @Mongabay conspire log last primary rainforests, replace w/ plantations 4:51 AM - 27 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 26 Dec
Whether @EcoInternet launches full campaign against @Mongabay primary forest logging greenwash depends if improve coverage incl more voices 5:58 PM - 26 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 26 Dec
@Mongabay reprints old forest logging greenwash verbatim while fails to cover grassroots global movement seeking end primary forest logging 5:50 PM - 26 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 26 Dec
@Mongabay has become biased, unscientific mouthpiece for those advocating Earth's last primary #rainforests be logged for new plantations 5:39 PM - 26 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 26 Dec
@Mongabay's editorial policy rarely if ever questions whether 1st time industrial primary #rainforest logging is an appropriate activity 2:48 PM - 26 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 25 Dec
@EcoInternet campaign to end primary forest logging now targets @Mongabay for rehashing REDD/FSC falseshoods primary forest logging is good 1:41 PM - 25 Dec 11


Dr. Glen Barry (@DrGlenBarry) 25 Dec
Global rainforest movement has become lethargic, bureaucratic & corrupt as greenwash logging old forests - blame @RAN @Greenpeace @Mongabay 1:37 PM - 25 Dec 11